Ubers National Dex Ubers Stage 3 - Moonlight Shadow (Xerneas suspect test)

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entrocefalo

is a Top Tiering Contributor
NatDex Slam Winner


As result of the recent survey, the National Dex Ubers council has unanimously decided to suspect test Xerneas.

:sv/Xerneas:

Reasoning

Xerneas has cemented itself as one of the most powerful setup sweepers in the tier. With access to Fairy Aura and Geomancy, very few Pokémon are able to stop it from using Geomancy and sweeping an entire team. Terastallization further increases Xerneas lethality to unmatched levels in the NatDex Ubers metagame. By Terastallizing into a Fighting or Electric type, Xerneas can even set up on checks such as Zacian-C or Necrozma-DM and Imposter-proof itself with Substitute, making it even more difficult to take down. In addition to gaining a lot of defensive measures, Xerneas also gains a lot of offensive pressure with Terastallization. Tera Electric paired with Thunderbolt or Thunder allows Xerneas to break through Ho-Oh and Necrozma-DM. Tera Fighting similarly allows Xerneas to break Necrozma-DM and allows it to additionally break through other checks such as Primal Groudon, Zacian-C, Ferrothorn, and Magearna.


Despite its huge offensive presence, Xerneas usually relies on coverage and Terastallizing to overcome its checks, for example running Focus Blast means that Primal Groudon can tank a hit and phase it out with Roar safely. In fact, after Power Herb has been consumed, Xerneas can become a deadweight for the team. Priority users such as Arceus and Marshadow have also been used as a way to mitigate a Xerneas sweep, but neither of them can OHKO Xerneas from full health with their priority move. Lastly the lack of recovery moves and vulnerability to all entry hazards further limits Xerneas, impacting its longevity.


For these reasons, the council believes in starting a suspect test of Xerneas.


Suspect Test Information

  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
GXEminimum games
8430
83.831
83.632
83.433
83.234
8335
82.836
82.637
82.438
82.239
8240
81.841
81.642
81.443
81.244
8145
80.846
80.647
80.448
80.249
8050

  • You must sign up with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NDUX. For example I could use the name NDUX entrocefalo.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex Ubers ladder for this suspect test, and Xerneas will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will go on for roughly two weeks, lasting until March 18th at 11:59pm GMT+1, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:

  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering to these will help out the moderation team and present your arguments in a better and more educated light.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.

The test will run until March 18th at 11:59pm GMT+1. In order to ban Xerneas, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements, post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible. Happy posting and laddering!

Tagging dhelmise and Marty for the suspect alert, thank you!
 
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Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor

Xerneas is quite famous for several generations as Geomancy lets it pull a RBY Mewtwo and threaten all team structures by sheer offensive pressure and bulk, rendering it really difficult to revenge kill, this is further complemented by its Fairy typing granting it uncommon weaknesses, and having really solid coverage to hit switch-ins.

The OP already goes nicely into detail of the ways to play around it, and it's rather clear that none of them are really consistent beyond running teams with unviable Pokemon like Clodsire and an extra check for Xerneas sets, which not only limits team structures into basically stall, there's also the fact that team structures that can "consistently" handle Xerneas are weak to other metagame threats.

However, there's one bit I'd like to talk about that didn't make it to the OP: The Stellar type.

Tera Stellar is an high-risk high-reward option, as it only boosts the power of each type's moves once, but it's still sufficient to OHKO Ho-Oh with Hidden Power Rock and in general overwhelm other Xerneas checks.

For those more interested in my general opinion on Xerneas besides the above, I'd really recommend to give this a read, but in a nutshell for those with little time, Xerneas can simply play around all its counterplay, and the sturdiest checks are also relatively the least viable things in the metagame, with the rest basically assuming that Xerneas can't Terastallize out of "somehow" luring that mechanic on another Pokemon, and if that isn't a hint of unhealthy centralization IDK what it is.
 
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Of note I think is that xern is practically a liability vs trick room, spamming melm, pdon, and necro-dm without even thinking about checking xern while they do it
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
When you join a game it doesn't say "National dex ubers is currently suspecting xerneas. click here to participate" at the top of the battle log/chat. Is this intentional?
This is now fixed
it's happened twice
NatDex Ubers only suspect tested tera once. Only NatDex OU has suspected it twice.


Also this a general reminder that one liners are generally discouraged in this thread. Further one liners will be deleted if they do not really contribute to the thread, thank you for your understanding. If you have any questions regarding the suspect process itself, feel free to pm me or one of the natdex ubers leaders (entrocefalo, bobsican)
 
chat can we get a :XernePog: over here
also i'd like to ask whether you guys would have wanted the funny deer to stay (no tera) because its other sets would provide value for the metagame or if u guys think it's nasty enough that all of its sets need to be 100% booted and it doesn't contribute to the meta otherwise
 
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What is meant my this "moonlight shadow" thing. Is this a joke I'm not in on?
Fr this sounds like something for :lunala:.

Anyways, I wanted to give my thoughts and opinions on why Xerneas should be banned from National Dex Ubers.

Firstly, and probably the most obvious reason, Xerneas is an offensive monster. Even without Geomancy activated, its Moonblasts are pretty strong with the investment put into it. With Choice Specs, it hits even harder, being able to 2HKO support Arceus formes, Eternatus and opposing Xerneas very reliably, while Choice Scarf makes it a solid revenge killer. But these two sets are obviously not the issue here, far from it, Geomancy turns Xerneas into a game-ending sweeper in one turn; its able to outspeed top threats like Deoxys-A and Zacian-C, able to stomach hits from Primal Kyogre and specially offensive Ultra Necrozma, and its power becomes ludicrous. With just Moonblast, Xerneas is able to achieve feats such as:

Support :arceus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 390-459 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
:calyrex-ice: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 361-426 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
:eternatus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 372-438 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:eternatus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 474-558 (112.5 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 300-354 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:lunala: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 215-253 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
:lunala: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 213-252 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Fairy Aura Xerneas: 463-546 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only are these calcs ignoring all the dragons in the tier, as well as Yveltal, Arceus-Dark, Marshadow, etc, but this is the standard for Geomancy Xerneas - 2HKOing everything. Remember that mono-Fairy is a great defensive typing, as well as the fact that Xerneas has a lot of HP (126) and can afford to invest in bulk due to Geomancy being enough in terms of speed. However, Moonblast doesn't cut it for Xerneas because there are a few mons who can "stop" Xerneas; Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane.

This is where coverage comes in, and trust me, Xerneas has a lot of coverage to choose from. If anything, let me list it off so you have an idea how much: Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Psyshock, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Rock and Hidden Power Ground. 7 coverage moves. Not only is this quite a lot to teambuild against, but this isn't even including terastalization, which makes Xerneas even MORE absurd to handle defensively. Tera Electric, Fighting, Ground and Stellar all make Xerneas harder to wall, allowing it to achieve feats such as this:

Tera Electric
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 428-506 (106.2 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 432-510 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 303-357 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO there isn't a defensive NDM set up so this is the most accurate thing I could do, but this is still absurd
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 288-339 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Tera Fighting
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 382-451 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 283-334 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 403-475 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 382-451 (117.5 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:chansey: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 552-650 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera Ground
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 384-452 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 303-357 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 384-452 (118.1 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera Stellar + Other Moves
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 306-361 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 323-380 (81.1 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 346-408 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Magearna: 250-294 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 306-361 (94.1 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
:chansey: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 442-520 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 384-456 (92.5 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 255-301 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:clodsire: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clodsire: 578-682 (124.5 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now you might be thinking that it can't be that easy to let Xerneas setup right? Right...? Well, no it's still pretty easy, especially with Terastalization. Just go Tera Electric on a Zacian-C going Behemoth Blade. Just go Tera Ground on an Eternatus using Sludge Bomb. Sometimes, Xerneas's raw bulk and typing is enough to setup on mons like Life Orb Yveltal and Zygarde. Speaking of which, the main way of dealing with Xerneas is to burn your OWN Terastalization just to phaze it out or try to OHKO it. Phazing isn't even reliable due to some sets running Ingrain. Status moves like Toxic aren't viable due to most sets having Substitute, or some having Aromatherapy. Substitute also blocks Ditto which would've been able to revenge kill it, except not really because it only 2HKOs the sweeping Xerneas unless you crit, while the Xerneas can OHKO you back. There's even the niche option of running Draining Kiss for recovery! This gamble is with one set alone, not even including the strain to have a good check to other sets like Choice Specs or Fairium Z.

And the way Xerneas can abuse a match is just wrong. NDM loses to Yveltal, Marshadow and Primal Groudon pretty easily, especially if its the passive defensive variant. Ho-Oh loses to Primal Groudon, Meteor Beam Eternatus and even Zygarde to an extent, who also beats Primal Groudon alongside Mega Salamence and Yveltal. Hell, all three of these guys lose to Primal Kyogre very easily. Using Xerneas as an end-game sweeper is very easy as it removes the need for anti-phazing options like Ingrain if you're the last mon left, especially after a HO Team sweeps through everything else so you can clear up easier, which all the counter-counter picks fit on, well apart from Zygarde but Xerneas is so good it can fit on more balance or BO structures anyways.

Overall, Xerneas is a huge strain on teambuilding for pretty much all structures, from HO to even stall, with it being able to come in relatively easily and make huge holes in the enemy team, or just win on the spot. Terastalization only pushes this further, making it almost unwallable unless it has the wrong coverage, which its teammates will usually provide for anyways. The only reliable counterplay is using priority such as Extreme Speed Arceus or Marshadow's Shadow Sneak, but obviously not every team can afford to run these two, and I wouldn't be surprised if ladder has developed Tera Normal/Ghost Xerneas just to spite these two. Please ban Xerneas from National Dex Ubers.

edited to get rid of the emotes cuz people dont like that so i changed it to make it easier to read. Hope this helps!
 
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1709766617091.png

Turn 7

nduxcanmymoveshit withdrew Korais Gone!
nduxcanmymoveshit sent out Ol' Reliable (Groudon)!
The opposing Ol' Reliable's Primal Reversion! It reverted to its primal state!
[The opposing Ol' Reliable's Desolate Land]
The sunlight turned extremely harsh!

Kyogre used Water Spout!
The Water-type attack evaporated in the harsh sunlight!

Turn 8

Kyogre, come back!
Go! Calyrex (Calyrex-Ice)!
[Calyrex's As One]
Calyrex has two Abilities!
[Calyrex's Unnerve]
The opposing team is too nervous to eat Berries!

The opposing Ol' Reliable used Toxic!
Calyrex avoided the attack!

Turn 9

Calyrex used High Horsepower!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
(The opposing Ol' Reliable lost 94% of its health!)

The opposing Ol' Reliable used Overheat!
Calyrex avoided the attack!

The twisted dimensions returned to normal!

Turn 10

Calyrex, come back!
Go! Lunala!

The opposing Ol' Reliable used Precipice Blades!
Lunala avoided the attack!

Turn 11

The opposing Ol' Reliable used Toxic!
Lunala avoided the attack!

Lunala used Trick Room!
Lunala twisted the dimensions!

Turn 12
☆about15guys: jesus

The opposing Ol' Reliable used Toxic!
Lunala was badly poisoned!

Lunala used Teleport!

Go! Kyogre (Kyogre-Primal)!
[Kyogre's Primordial Sea]
A heavy rain began to fall!

Turn 13

nduxcanmymoveshit withdrew Ol' Reliable!
nduxcanmymoveshit sent out Shiestatina (Giratina-Origin)!

Kyogre used Water Spout!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Shiestatina lost 53% of its health!)

Turn 14

Kyogre used Water Spout!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Shiestatina lost 47% of its health!)

The opposing Shiestatina fainted!

nduxcanmymoveshit sent out Ol' Reliable (Groudon-Primal)!
[The opposing Ol' Reliable's Desolate Land]
The sunlight turned extremely harsh!

Turn 15

The extremely harsh sunlight faded.

nduxcanmymoveshit withdrew Ol' Reliable!
nduxcanmymoveshit sent out Korais Gone (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane)!

Kyogre used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Korais Gone lost 20% of its health!)
The opposing Korais Gone was frozen solid!

The twisted dimensions returned to normal!

Turn 16
☆nduxcanmymoveshit: are you fucking kidding me

The above sums up my experience with this suspect run. Going into a suspect you accept the likelihood for a whole lot of nonsense and bullshit that can truly only be described by an accolade of words wholly inappropriate for a serious post. This run surpassed my wildest expectations between the hax, moves that lied about being 90% accurate, and just general nonsense you see the wild stallions of low ladder running. They truly are having more fun than any of us.


I had not planned on posting the team I initially used, but as my seasonal game for the week is done I will probably submit it tomorrow for the teambuilding comp anyways so: :groudon-primal::necrozma-dusk-mane::giratina-origin::zygarde::rayquaza::arceus-dark: (click for paste). A couple of weeks ago I sent it over to ZRP200 for feedback and their response of "generally this loses to ladder cheese (tera blast fairy ekiller lmao) but is relatively good against regular teams" about sums the experience I had after a couple runs at reqs. At a certain point I was convinced Zarel had accidently swapped thunder wave and zap cannons accuracy in an update. I was shocked at how tilted I was at the time and loaded the :calyrex-ice: team on an alt aptly named blood pressure and got reqs with that on the first run. There were some hax resulting in more losses than I would have liked but reqs are reqs and I'll definitely need a couple days away from mons. If you're having issues with reqs and don't want to run HO Overheat :groudon-primal: / defensive :kyogre-primal: / :ho-oh: / :zygarde: / :arceus-dark: +1 is pretty resiliant into a lot of the tomfoolery you'll see (shoutout to the person running tailwind / heal bell / dragon dance / espeed :dragonite:).

With that preamble about the run out of the way it is time to talk about the :xerneas: in the room. I agree with most of what Bobsican, Sami, and other pro-ban voters have said about :xerneas:. I've written about the deer myself on the meta discussion a fair bit if anyone is interested in more details on my views. It is my understanding that Runo is in the process of writing a detailed post in regards to the checks and counters to various :xerneas: sets and counters. From the glimpse of it I had it looks like it will be a fantastic post and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

I won't delve much into this topic other than to say, at least in my eyes :ho-oh: is really the only solid :xerneas: counterplay in the tier. :magearna: exists and handles :xerneas: decently, but is so limited in the number of teams that are able to actually fit that I don't view it as a good answer. Some people have mentioned :clodsire:, but if you are considering :clodsire: to be real then psyshock :xerneas: is just as real. That is an unset to answer an unmon.

Though lots of people have discussed :xerneas:'s sweeping capabilities, one aspect I seldom see discussed is that :xerneas: is also one of the best wallbreakers in the tier(:power-herb: though :choice-specs: is great that set is not a reason for the suspect). :xerneas: is not breaking through every team with a singular set. If it was it would have been banned a long time ago. While :xerneas: is not going to sweep most well built teams immediately, it doesn't have to play a significant factor in winning the battle. Unless you decide to load HO, you will have solid :xerneas: counterplay, most often in the form of whirlwind :ho-oh:.

The issue is that in the course of handling :xerneas: you have a coinflip of whether or not to pop your tera to ensure that you can phase it though the :xerneas: user regardless of what move is clicked. If you get that coinflip wrong there is a significant chance that the game is over. If you don't tera you risk getting one shot, if you do you've successfully phased :xerneas:, but have opened yourself up signficantly as :ho-oh: is now quite vulnerable to one of :xerneas:'s teammates which can take advantage of this. This also presumes that :xerneas: doesn't just moonblast :ho-oh: for 90% as it teras which will not be recoverable in most games. Regardless of what happens, the power is entirely within the :xerneas: users control. It is eerily similar to seeing a :gothitelle: on the other team. Few if any other mons in the tier are able to force progress as easily as :xerneas: and that is something that should be considered in addition to its capabilities as a sweeper. If you've read through the suspect post and PR thread for the current :miraidon: test in SV Ubers a lot of the points raised surrounding defensive counterplay apply in a similar manner :xerneas:, albeit to a lesser degree.

I'll be voting to ban :xerneas: and hope that y'all will be as well. Best of luck to those still working on their reqs for the test
 
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the only ways I've been able to deal with Xern are Mega Lucario with Bullet Punch (spotty at times) and tera-steel Zygarde (also spotty). Outside of that, nothing. If there were better steel types, then it would remedy the issue, but keeping a team balanced and not overloading on legendaries is key to success
 
the only ways I've been able to deal with Xern are Mega Lucario with Bullet Punch (spotty at times) and tera-steel Zygarde (also spotty). Outside of that, nothing. If there were better steel types, then it would remedy the issue, but keeping a team balanced and not overloading on legendaries is key to success
"Overloading on legendaries" This is Ubers... also :necrozma-dusk-mane: exists
 
the only ways I've been able to deal with Xern are Mega Lucario with Bullet Punch (spotty at times)
I think you've misunderstood what it is that makes Xern particularly stupid:

Steel types no longer check it

Your bullet punch is actually resisted by the Xerneas, since it went Tera Electric. Actually, it will just use Tera Electric to begin with and set up on your Meteor Mash before sweeping you.

This is embodied by the fall of :necrozma-dusk-mane:, which since its release was the quintessential Xerneas counter: takes +2 Xerneas's coverage well and then KOes with STAB Sunsteel Strike. There is literally no "better steel" possible than this mon lmao.

Now, however, Xerneas uses the same mon as setup fodder. Tera Electric reduces the damage of sunsteel and other steel attacks to such a degree that Xerneas can safely substitute on it, click Geomancy, substitute again, and sweep behind the safety of a substitute.

The same set hits Ho-Oh for an OHKO with Thunderbolt --- Xerneas no longer needs to run thunder OR chip ho-oh previously, dramatically reducing Ho-Oh's potency as "the" xerneas counter.

This isn't even mentioning the Tera Fighting sets that can hit Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, and Zacian-C for OHKOes and 2hko chansey through confide.

S0A0M0I0 already went through the calcs in their post so I won't repeat them, but in short, Xerneas can troll all of its counters with almost trivial ease, even disregarding team support.

What made Xerneas manageable in the past was that ability to use steels to check it or otherwise pressure it, or to defensively check it with walls like Ho-Oh. That counterplay is gone, and thus we should also make Xerneas be gone.


 
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Back before Koraidon was banned, I didn't have any strong opinions about if it should be banned or not in the suspect. However, with hindsight (and after playing a few games in SV Ubers) I'm very happy it was banned. It's incredibly toxic to build against, has too much set variance, counters itself, and is just too powerful for ND Ubers.

A few days ago, I didn't have any strong opinions about if Xerneas should be banned or not in this suspect. However, with hindsight (and after comparing it to the previous suspect), I'll happily be voting ban. It's incredibly toxic to build against, has too much set variance, checks itself, and is just too powerful to ND Ubers.


floober isn't the broken set though it's absolutely terrible
 
floober isn't the broken set though it's absolutely terrible
WHAT
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I feel like xerneas isnt as broken as koraidon at its peak, and tera when pdon could still use it. xerneas still feels like a tera hog at times, not being able to blow past its checks without tera'ing, and even then it often just results in a tera for tera trade. in my opinion tera is the problem, not xerneas, and i will be voting dnb, even though im still kinda 50/50 on it (i let a coinflip decide wether i would vote ban or dnb lol)
 
Fr this sounds like something for :lunala:.

Anyways, I wanted to give my thoughts and opinions on why :xerneas: should be banned from National Dex Ubers.

Firstly, and probably the most obvious reason, :xerneas: is an offensive monster. Even without Geomancy activated, its Moonblasts are pretty strong with the investment put into it. With :choice-specs:, it hits even harder, being able to 2HKO support Arceus formes, :eternatus: and opposing :xerneas: very reliably, while :choice-scarf: makes it a solid revenge killer. But these two sets are obviously not the issue here, far from it, Geomancy turns :xerneas: into a game-ending sweeper in one turn; its able to outspeed top threats like :deoxys-attack: and :zacian-crowned:, able to stomach hits from :kyogre-primal: and specially offensive :necrozma-ultra:, and its power becomes ludicrous. With just Moonblast, :xerneas: is able to achieve feats such as:

Support :arceus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 390-459 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
:calyrex-ice: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 361-426 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
:eternatus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 372-438 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:eternatus: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 474-558 (112.5 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 300-354 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:lunala: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 215-253 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
:lunala: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 213-252 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:xerneas: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Fairy Aura Xerneas: 463-546 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 201-237 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only are these calcs ignoring all the dragons in the tier, as well as :yveltal:, :arceus-dark:, :marshadow: etc, but this is the standard for Geomancy :xerneas: - 2HKOing everything. Remember that mono-Fairy is a great defensive typing, as well as the fact that :xerneas: has a lot of HP (126) and can afford to invest in bulk due to Geomancy being enough in terms of speed. However, Moonblast doesn't cut it for :xerneas: because there are a few mons who can "stop" :xerneas:; :groudon-primal:, :ho-oh: annd :necrozma-dusk-mane:.

This is where coverage comes in, and trust me, :xerneas: has a lot of coverage to choose from. If anything, let me list it off so you have an idea how much: Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Psyshock, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Rock and Hidden Power Ground. 7 coverage moves. Not only is this quite a lot to teambuild against, but this isn't even including terastalization, which makes :xerneas: even MORE absurd to handle defensively. Tera Electric, Fighting, Ground and Stellar all make :xerneas: harder to wall, allowing it to achieve feats such as this:

Tera Electric
:kyogre-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 428-506 (106.2 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 432-510 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 303-357 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO there isn't a defensive NDM set up so this is the most accurate thing I could do, but this is still absurd
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 288-339 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Electric Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Tera Fighting
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 382-451 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 283-334 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 403-475 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 382-451 (117.5 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:chansey: +2 252+ SpA Tera Fighting Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 552-650 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera Ground
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 384-452 (95.2 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 303-357 (76.3 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Ground Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 384-452 (118.1 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera Stellar + Other Moves
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 306-361 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 323-380 (81.1 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 346-408 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:magearna: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Magearna: 250-294 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:zacian-crowned: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 306-361 (94.1 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
:chansey: +2 252+ SpA Tera Stellar Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 442-520 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:ho-oh: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 384-456 (92.5 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
:groudon-primal: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 255-301 (63.2 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:clodsire: +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clodsire: 578-682 (124.5 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now you might be thinking that it can't be that easy to let :xerneas: setup right? Right...? Well, no it's still pretty easy, especially with Terastalization. Just go Tera Electric on a :zacian-crowned: going Behemoth Blade. Just go Tera Ground on a :eternatus: using Sludge Bomb. Sometimes, :xerneas:'s raw bulk and typing is enough to setup on mons like :life-orb: :yveltal: and :zygarde:. Speaking of which, the main way of dealing with :xerneas: is to burn your OWN Terastalization just to phaze it out or try to OHKO it. Phazing isn't even reliable due to some sets running Ingrain. Status moves like Toxic aren't viable due to most sets having Substitute, or some having Aromatherapy. Substitute also blocks :ditto: which would've been able to revenge kill it, except not really because it only 2HKOs the sweeping :xerneas: unless you crit, while the :xerneas: can OHKO you back. There's even the niche option of running Draining Kiss for recovery! This gamble is with one set alone, not even including the strain to have a good check to other sets like :choice-specs: or :fairium-z:.

And the way :xerneas: can abuse a match is just wrong. :necrozma-dusk-mane: loses to :yveltal:, :marshadow: and :groudon-primal: pretty easily, especially if its the passive defensive variant. :ho-oh: loses to :groudon-primal:, :power-herb: :eternatus: and even :zygarde: to an extent, who also beats :groudon-primal: alongside :salamence-mega: and :yveltal:. Hell, all three of these guys lose to :kyogre-primal: very easily. Using :xerneas: as an end-game sweeper is very easy as it removes the need for anti-phazing options like Ingrain if you're the last mon left, especially after a HO Team sweeps through everything else so you can clear up easier, which all the counter-counter picks fit on, well apart from :zygarde: but :xerneas: is so good it can fit on more balance or BO structures anyways.

Overall, :xerneas: is a huge strain on teambuilding for pretty much all structures, from HO to even stall, with it being able to come in relatively easily and make huge holes in the enemy team, or just win on the spot. Terastalization only pushes this further, making it almost unwallable unless it has the wrong coverage, which its teammates will usually provide for anyways. The only reliable counterplay is using priority such as Extreme Speed :arceus: or :marshadow:'s Shadow Sneak, but obviously not every team can afford to run these two, and I wouldn't be surprised if ladder has developed Tera Normal/Ghost :xerneas: just to spite these two. Please ban Xerneas from National Dex Ubers.
This perspective might not be for the majority, but I wanna speak out my thoughts. I think :Xerneas: is being overestimated here. Sure, it can run away with the game in a single turn. Yes, it can terastallize into an offensive type like Fighting, Electric, Ground, Fairy, or even Stellar to overwhelm its checks, or maybe a defensive type like Steel and Water to foil attempts from the likes of :Eternatus:, :Necrozma-Ultra:, and :Ho-Oh: to neutralize it and allow setup on foes it normally wouldn't want to have anything to do with, like Zacian-Crowned. And it's true that its damage output is quite stellar at +2 in conjunction with great bulk, pun intended. However, let's not forget these facts: the player can also have their terastallization, the realm of NDUBERS is infested with the ubiquitous :Groudon-Primal: + :Ho-Oh:, probably the most solid core for this tier, who also happens to make a :Xerneas: sweep hard to pull off, and WE CAN OUTPLAY.

TL;DR :Xerneas: is manageable if you know what you are doing. Adapt, prepare, build, and play well. Doing so is not restricting teambuilding variety nor is it unrealistic. DNB (If I get reqs, lol)


Long Version:
Let me get started with this: Tera Grass :Ho-Oh:, while good, is not the REQUIRED standard for EVERY team. This isn't the YEN situation back in Generation 8 where you absolutely have to bring these 3 or else you just put yourself at a massive disadvantage for absolutely no reason. You can bring a different tera type for :Ho-Oh: and still be consistent. You can innovate your EV spread and divert from norm and still be consistent, possibly even achieve greater consistency. For example, we have Tera Fire/Poison :Ho-Oh: as an option to absolutely stonewall any :Xerneas: AND :Zacian-Crowned: while also easing the :Eternatus: matchup. Tera Stellar nor Tera Electric or Tera Fighting, you name any tera type :Xerneas: might take and this :Ho-Oh: just laughs.

Furthermore, 248/204+/52 is a thing of the past. Changing times call for adaptive measures and one of these is 240/212/56+ which absolutely foils any Hidden Power [Rock] variants from breaking through from full without terastallizing Stellar or Rock while also easing the :Choice-Specs: :Eternatus:, Special :Life-Orb: :Yveltal:, and Power Gem :Arceus-Ground: matchup without terastallizing yourself. This is by no means a heavy toll nor is it an "unset" since :Zacian-Crowned: just kills it, :Marshadow: just chip it hard or even kill with Rock Tomb, :Arceus: will heavily chip you with +2 LO Tera Normal Extreme Speed, if not outright OHKO anyway, and so on and so forth, and if you're using :Ho-Oh: as the sole check to these when :Xerneas: is waiting in the back, something is wrong. You still check :Zygarde: decently and can still take a massive bunch of physical attacks that isn't a Rock-type so what's the point? Going to :Groudon-Primal:, its presence with :Ho-Oh: means :Xerneas: either has to sacrifice itself to break one of its checks or just trade tera for tera, which is often in the defending side's favor. Tera Fighting and Ground only breaks :Groudon-Primal:, Tera Electric will only break :Ho-Oh:, Tera Stellar is stiffled by a well-timed Tera :Ho-Oh: and :Groudon-Primal: + a revenge killer, and so on. There is always a caveat the :Xerneas: player willingly accepts whenever using :Xerneas:. And while, yes, it has teammates that can potentially poke holes, we must not forget that we also have teammates for this core, and if Xerneas' teammates managed to break your :Xerneas: checks, or you don't have any form of speed control in a pretty offensive meta as this, then it's either your team composition lacks more intricate improvements, or you played terribly. After all, RNG aside, we have full control over how to handle every scenario, and we have the resources to prepare for the most common matchups at best. And I disagree with the remark that :Groudon-Primal: + :Ho-Oh: + :Zygarde: + Speed Control/Wallbreaker + Fairy-type and/or Dark resist + Fat Arceus/Speed Control or Wallbreaker/:Eternatus:/Steel-type/Ghost-type, or having to run SpDef :Ho-Oh: or a speed control is "restrictive" or a ":Xerneas: cteam" and something of the sort because even without :Xerneas:, this will still be the go-to due to how solid it is vs prevalent threats. Now I'm, sure you're already thinking,"bro, :Groudon-Primal: is easy to overwhelm," or ":Ho-Oh: switches in on a lot, so it's not hard to kill it." This will bring me to my next point...

Just play and build with intricate caution. Offense is the best defense, as they say. Having no offensive pressure of your own in such a meta as this is ridiculous unless you're running hard stall. I've been playing for some time, and I've noticed that 9/10, players lose to :Xerneas: because of bad team composition and nonchalant play. As I said earlier, :Xerneas: can only break one of :Groudon-Primal: or :Ho-Oh:, therefore, why give them both? Why let :Ho-Oh: take damage when :Xerneas: is in the back? Why switch it in on :Eternatus: when it's so obvious it's :Power-Herb:? Why let :Groudon-Primal: get to low health when you know you can't out-offense? Why use it to check something like SD :Arceus: if :Xerneas: is just waiting for it to get chipped or die? Why don't you have any way of dealing with boosted threats knowing you can't possibly handle all matchups without resorting to stall? Regarding the :Kyogre-Primal: breaking shared checks, only a ridiculously-passive-for-a-balance-team will fall for :Kyogre-Primal: + :Xerneas:. It is deadly, sure, but nothing really appalling, especially with the fact that you can terastallize and you can out-offense. Sometimes we just have to play well and go beyond the surface against foes. And this applies to every threat that we will or would ever encounter in the future.
 
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Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
This perspective might not be for the majority, but I wanna speak out my thoughts. I think :Xerneas: is being overestimated here. Sure, it can run away with the game in a single turn. Yes, it can terastallize into an offensive type like Fighting, Electric, Ground, Fairy, or even Stellar to overwhelm its checks, or maybe a defensive type like Steel and Water to foil attempts from the likes of :Eternatus:, :Necrozma-Ultra:, and :Ho-Oh: to neutralize it and allow setup on foes it normally wouldn't want to have anything to do with, like Zacian-Crowned. And it's true that its damage output is quite stellar at +2 in conjunction with great bulk, pun intended. However, let's not forget these facts: the player can also have their terastallization, the realm of NDUBERS is infested with the ubiquitous :Groudon-Primal: + :Ho-Oh:, probably the most solid core for this tier, who also happens to make a :Xerneas: sweep hard to pull off, and WE CAN OUTPLAY.

TL;DR :Xerneas: is manageable if you know what you are doing. Adapt, prepare, build, and play well. Doing so is not restricting teambuilding variety nor is it unrealistic.
Players being able to Terastallize as well is not a good reasoning to keep something in the metagame, as the OP outlines, the policy isn't based on "broken checking broken", so counterplay in itself existing is not sufficient to make a claim of this sort, and as for the point regarding a core of :groudon-primal: and :ho-oh:, as outlined in a post I linked previously, every single non hyper offense team is forced to run at least one of those two to be viable just to answer it, which goes from a metagame trend being naturally sufficiently disfavorable for it to stay like how :greninja-ash: was in Gen 8 NDOU, to just blatant unhealthy centralization around two mons that struggle checking it consistently.

Long Version:
Let me get started with this: Tera Grass :Ho-Oh:, while good, is not the REQUIRED standard for EVERY team. This isn't the YEN situation back in Generation 8 where you absolutely have to bring these 3 or else you just put yourself at a massive disadvantage for absolutely no reason. You can bring a different tera type for :Ho-Oh: and still be consistent. You can innovate your EV spread and divert from norm and still be consistent, possibly even achieve greater consistency. For example, we have Tera Fire/Poison :Ho-Oh: as an option to absolutely stonewall any :Xerneas: AND :Zacian-Crowned: while also easing the :Eternatus: matchup. Tera Stellar nor Tera Electric or Tera Fighting, you name any tera type :Xerneas: might take and this :Ho-Oh: just laughs.
Except, that as brought up before, you'd still have to use :Ho-Oh: in the first place, limiting teambuilding for any team structure that isn't hyper offense, you're also straight up theorymonning on Tera Poison :Ho-Oh:, which is quite detrimental on basically all matchups it's intended to normally check while also becoming weak to several mons like :necrozma-ultra:, :mewtwo mega y:, suppport :arceus-ground:, and so on.

Terastallizing in itself is also a major opportunity cost, especially for defensive Pokemon, as it's netically more productive to make offensive pressure with a offensive Tera type (:xerneas: itself being a good example here) than to barely hold away from being KOed with a Tera type, and picking a Tera type only for a single Pokemon mainly quite speaks on the centralization of :Xerneas:, so your points really just indicate further how negative it is to have on the metagame.

If such set even became a trend either way, I'll remind that :Xerneas: has Psyshock, and unsurprisingly it can OHKO all Poison-type "counters" with that.

Furthermore, 248/204+/52 is a thing of the past. Changing times call for adaptive measures and one of these is 240/212/56+ which absolutely foils any Hidden Power [Rock] variants from breaking through from full without terastallizing Stellar or Rock while also easing the :Choice-Specs: :Eternatus:, Special :Life-Orb: :Yveltal:, and Power Gem :Arceus-Ground: matchup without terastallizing yourself. This is by no means a heavy toll nor is it an "unset" since :Zacian-Crowned: just kills it, :Marshadow: just chip it hard or even kill with Rock Tomb, :Arceus: will heavily chip you with +2 LO Tera Normal Extreme Speed, if not outright OHKO anyway, and so on and so forth, and if you're using :Ho-Oh: as the sole check to these when :Xerneas: is waiting in the back, something is wrong. You still check :Zygarde: decently and can still take a massive bunch of physical attacks that isn't a Rock-type so what's the point? Going to :Groudon-Primal:, its presence with :Ho-Oh: means :Xerneas: either has to sacrifice itself to break one of its checks or just trade tera for tera, which is often in the defending side's favor. Tera Fighting and Ground only breaks :Groudon-Primal:, Tera Electric will only break :Ho-Oh:, Tera Stellar is stiffled by a well-timed Tera :Ho-Oh: and :Groudon-Primal: + a revenge killer, and so on. There is always a caveat the :Xerneas: player willingly accepts whenever using :Xerneas:. And while, yes, it has teammates that can potentially poke holes, we must not forget that we also have teammates for this core, and if Xerneas' teammates managed to break your :Xerneas: checks, or you don't have any form of speed control in a pretty offensive meta as this, then it's either your team composition lacks more intricate improvements, or you played terribly. After all, RNG aside, we have full control over how to handle every scenario, and we have the resources to prepare for the most common matchups at best. And I disagree with the remark that :Groudon-Primal: + :Ho-Oh: + :Zygarde: + Speed Control/Wallbreaker + Fairy-type and/or Dark resist + Fat Arceus/Speed Control or Wallbreaker/:Eternatus:/Steel-type/Ghost-type, or having to run SpDef :Ho-Oh: or a speed control is "restrictive" or a ":Xerneas: cteam" and something of the sort because even without :Xerneas:, this will still be the go-to due to how solid it is. Now I'm, sure you're already thinking,"bro, :Groudon-Primal: is easy to overwhelm," or ":Ho-Oh: switches in on a lot, so it's not hard to kill it." This will bring me to my next point...
:choice specs::eternatus: isn't even a standard set or anything right now, and in fact I and other QC members were discussing about that set the other day, and while good, it's rather niche as it requires a team being built around it, plus with Regenerator, :Ho-Oh: checks that set just as well as it can then just switch to something like :necrozma-dusk-mane: to handle it better given the choice lock, or quite funnily, :Xerneas: to setup as it forces a switch.

Variants of :arceus-ground: with Power Gem also run Calm Mind, :Ho-Oh: is going to be 2HKO'd regardless, in fact without setup it's a favorable 2HKO roll.

252 SpA Arceus-Ground Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 56+ SpD Ho-Oh: 200-236 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

Now, compare to the regular spread:

252 SpA Arceus-Ground Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 220-260 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It doesn't really help that much overall and you're instead exaggerating the viability of this "new" spread, and regarding :life orb::yveltal:, that mon runs Knock Off, which Ho-Oh dislikes as then it can't really act as a hazard remover without Terastallizing itself, which gives away potential mind games involving :Xerneas:, thus ironically rendering the matchup worse in general, especially as then its allies can abuse the change of :ho-oh:'s defensive traits to blow holes as brought up before regarding on it no longer checking Ground- or Psychic-types at all.

IDK why after these points you then try to defend on this not being an unset by bringing up several mons it'd normally check just beating it, which directly goes against your point.

You're also basically conceeding on :xerneas: being centralizing as you're demanding every single non-HO team to run :ho-oh:, :groudon primal: and an additional check, and I don't have to explain on that at this point as I've elaborated on that previously, it's also undeniable that the :xerneas: player is in the advantage when using it, as the opponent is the one that has to worry about on if Terastallizing in a crucial turn will help them stop :xerneas: or not and otherwise being swept, while the :Xerneas: player, at most, is worrying about losing a single Pokemon.

Just play and build with intricate caution. Offense is the best defense, as they say. I've been playing for some time, and I've noticed that 9/10, players lose to :Xerneas: because of bad team composition and nonchalant play. As I said earlier, :Xerneas: can only break one of :Groudon-Primal: or :Ho-Oh:, therefore, why give them both? Why let :Ho-Oh: take damage when :Xerneas: is in the back? Why switch it in on :Eternatus: when it's so obvious it's :Power-Herb:? Why let :Groudon-Primal: get to low health when you know you can't out-offense? Why use it to check something like SD :Arceus: if :Xerneas: is just waiting for it to get chipped or die? Regarding the :Kyogre-Primal: breaking shared checks, only a ridiculously-passive-for-a-balance-team will fall for :Kyogre-Primal: + :Xerneas:. It is deadly, sure, but nothing really appalling, especially with the fact that you can terastallize. Sometimes we just have to play well and go beyond the surface against foes. And this applies to every threat that we will or would encounter in the future.
I wouldn't trust ladder when it comes to how the Pokemon is used, :focus sash::marshadow: is a metagame trend in the ladder to this day, and I and others have actively tried to go into detail on how that's simply an unset as Stealth Rock exists, let alone :Life Orb: and :choice band: having way more wallbreaking potential, in fact the NDWC tournament is coming this year, and it'd be best to keep the metagame in a more stable position for high-level play.

It's way easier said than done to keep both :groudon-primal: and :ho-oh:, plus the Terastallizing slot, usable just for a potential mind game with :xerneas: that can cost the non-:xerneas: player the match-up as said before, especially as you've said, this core covers well a good portion of the metagame, but they still are vulnerable to being crippled by Knock Off, bad poisoning or paralysis (:ho-oh:), or only bad poisoning (:groudon-primal:), but more relevantly both of those get worn down by attacks, especially :groudon-primal: as it has no way to innately restore its HP, so this is just trying to make a point from something that simply isn't the case.

Overall, these "points" just have made me notice further how Xerneas is a negative impact to the metagame.
 
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Tera Fire/Poison :Ho-Oh:
Who's running Tera Poison :ho-oh:? I've never seen this set on ladder or in tournaments.

you name any tera type :Xerneas: might take and this :Ho-Oh: just laughs.
While that's true, what if the Xerneas is Ingrain? What do you do then? :xerneas: can just repeatedly chip at you with Thunderbolt or even Moonblast if it has to.

"unset" since :Zacian-Crowned: just kills it
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 262-310 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can live this and retaliate with Sacred Fire.

Tera Stellar is stiffled by a well-timed Tera :Ho-Oh: and :Groudon-Primal: + a revenge killer,
I really don't think a "well-timed tera" is a good argument because what if you CAN'T tera? What if one of Xerneas's teammates manages to snowball and forces you to tera something else instead? It just makes :xerneas: more shaky to switch around if a "well-timed tera" is the only forme of counterplay.

And while, yes, it has teammates that can potentially poke holes, we must not forget that we also have teammates for this core, and if Xerneas' teammates managed to break your :Xerneas: checks, or you don't have any form of speed control in a pretty offensive meta as this, then it's either your team composition lacks more intricate improvements, or you played terribly.
Except all of :xerneas:'s teammates, :kyogre-primal:, :power-herb: :eternatus:, :arceus: and others, are all here to specifically break through :ho-oh: and :groudon-primal:, and the combination of those three (and more) is very difficult for a non-stall team to manage. For example, :zygarde: and :arceus-dark: can beat :groudon-primal: but not :eternatus: or :kyogre-primal:. :necrozma-dusk-mane: can check :arceus: but is terrible into :kyogre-primal:. :ferrothorn: can check :kyogre-primal: but is OHKOd by :eternatus:. Not every team can afford good speed control as well, such as Bulky Offense or Fat Balance teams, along with the fact that :xerneas: outspeeds most "speed-control" options anyways, like :zacian-crowned: or even niche options like :flutter-mane:.

And I disagree with the remark that :Groudon-Primal: + :Ho-Oh: + :Zygarde: + Speed Control/Wallbreaker + Fairy-type and/or Dark resist + Fat Arceus/Speed Control or Wallbreaker/:Eternatus:/Steel-type/Ghost-type, or having to run SpDef :Ho-Oh: or a speed control is "restrictive" or a ":Xerneas: cteam" and something of the sort because even without :Xerneas:, this will still be the go-to due to how solid it is vs prevalent threats.
What? Who said that? :xerneas: is restrictive because of its coverage and power, not because it forces most teams to run a niche mon or spread? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

As I said earlier, :Xerneas: can only break one of :Groudon-Primal: or :Ho-Oh:, therefore, why give them both? Why let :Ho-Oh: take damage when :Xerneas: is in the back? Why switch it in on :Eternatus: when it's so obvious it's :Power-Herb:? Why let :Groudon-Primal: get to low health when you know you can't out-offense? Why use it to check something like SD :Arceus: if :Xerneas: is just waiting for it to get chipped or die? Why don't you have any way of dealing with boosted threats knowing you can't possibly handle all matchups without resorting to stall?
Doesn't this show how limiting :xerneas: is to play against? What you're saying is that I'm forced to keep both :groudon-primal: and :ho-oh: healthy to check :xerneas:, so I'm playing a 4v5 with the rest of my team against threats like :arceus:, :power-herb: :eternatus:, :kyogre-primal: and so many others that can fit on HO. Also, what would even switch in on these mons if :groudon-primal: and :ho-oh: are out of the picture to check :xerneas:, who nearly OHKO both of them in one set with Tera Fighting Focus Blast + HP Rock? This paragraph is just assuming you have reasonable checks to anything HO teams through at you, which you can't hope to have in 4 slots. "Offense is the best Defense" is just encouraging more HO strategies which doesn't make a metagame sustainable or enjoyable in the long-run.

Regarding the :Kyogre-Primal: breaking shared checks, only a ridiculously-passive-for-a-balance-team will fall for :Kyogre-Primal: + :Xerneas:. It is deadly, sure, but nothing really appalling, especially with the fact that you can terastallize and you can out-offense.
Again, using terastalization as counterplay isn't valid because of how inconsistent it is.
Honestly, I'm agreeing with what Bobsican said, this post makes me notice how much more powerful :xerneas: really is, rather than the idea that we can "outplay" it.

xerneas still feels like a tera hog at times, not being able to blow past its checks without tera'ing, and even then it often just results in a tera for tera trade.
The Focus Blast + HP Rock set usually doesn't have to terastalize, unless certain mons like :groudon-primal: are still healthy, or there are other niche mons like :chansey: present. Again, :xerneas: forcing other mons to Terastalize isn't healthy at all either.
 
I wrote a lot on Xerneas here and so far none of the pro-ban arguments are convincing enough to change my stance.

Ubers historically has always been a centralized metagame. It's not unreasonable to accept that some Pokemon will have 70%+ of usage, like PDon after its introduction, YEN core in Gen 8 Ubers rocking 85% usage that 09-10a mentioned in his/her post.

Is the current PDon and Ho-Oh over centralized by the usage of Xerneas, or even Xerneas + friends? No, far from it! They have respectively 60% and 29% usage. If Xerneas mandates the use of this core then it is doing a very bad job, especially considering that they also check a whole lot of other threats in the metagame. In other words, Xerneas is used despite the existence of two top-tier threats and not the other way around like some pro-ban arguments would imply. I concede that some Ho-Oh could take a more offensive role if not for Xerneas and Zacian-C, not that it invalidates my point.

People also use the Tera argument for a ban. Well if Xerneas needs to Tera to get past its usual checks, then it's only fair for the defending team to use Tera as well. Tera Fire Ho-Oh is a surefire counter to Xerneas, but Ho-Oh often runs other Tera because we have enough counterplay to Xerneas in the tier. Balance teams consisting of PDon, Ho-Oh/Giratina-O, Eternatus/Necrozma-DM/POgre, Zygarde-C/Arceus-Ground are solid enough to provide counterplay to every combination of threat in the metagame. Pair this with a priority user/speed control/fast Taunt and you have an excellent backbone, which you as the team builder can afford to weaken by replacing a member by another one generating enough offensive pressure to offset the weakness generated. I really, really don't think the metagame is in a bad place or not enjoyable enough to warrant any ban, maybe with the exception of Tera. Zacian-C can also run through PDon and Ho-Oh with Tera Fighting, requiring a defensive Tera to deal with it since it also happens to resist Extremespeed, unlike Xerneas. It also has more switch-in opportunities, so why Xerneas? Is it because of the possibility of Ingrain? Of Z-Geomancy? Is it because it can choose when to click Geomancy and Zacian-C needs the +3 to get past PDon?

Well on the latter, when can Xerneas realistically click Geomancy without any retaliation so that any subsequent priority move does not pick it off? I mentioned it in the post I linked. Zygarde-C, Arceus-Dark, Mega Mewtwo Y, Giratina-O, Deoxys-A at -2. If Xerneas was such a problem and didn't have enough counterplay then they wouldn't be ranked S, A+, A-, A-, A- respectively. This is hard evidence that Xerneas doesn't impact the metagame to an unhealthy degree.

With the correct Tera right off the bat, for example Steel or Electric Xerneas could set up on more things such as Eternatus or Mega Salamence, but this means Xerneas won't be able to get past Ho-Oh or Groudon.

Overall, I find the pro-ban arguments to be idealized and fail to consider the larger scheme of things. If PDon can be chipped by a bunch of different things, so can Xerneas by SR. If you need to preserve PDon in a very good condition to take a +2 Focus Blast, you can rely on your teammates to ease Groudon's job. Remember you have 6 slots to fend off the opposing team, unlike Xerneas' team because the only attacks Xerneas can realistically take is resisted Judgments and weak Thousand Arrows, so it must rely on its 5 other teammates. If you don't have the right Tera you cannot blow past Ho-Oh, or have less opportunities to set-up. If you use Xerneas + Zacian-C, Xerneas + POgre, or worse, Xerneas + Gothitelle, you'd better manage the rest of your team because you just dedicated two slots to overload Xerneas' checks and are prone to get swept first by other threats which have, unlike Xerneas, several opportunities to set-up throughout a game, even though Zacian-C or POgre do have defensive utility.

I'm not undermining Xerneas' qualities. It is a fantastic Pokemon which can be devastating in the right hands and the right matchup. The lack of immediate power, the popularity of its checks, the need to run the right Tera to get past said checks, the lack of general defensive utility all holds it back. There is a ban threshold and I don't think it goes above that line.
 

Bobsican

Powerscaler at heart
is a Top Tiering Contributor
I wrote a lot on Xerneas here and so far none of the pro-ban arguments are convincing enough to change my stance.

Ubers historically has always been a centralized metagame. It's not unreasonable to accept that some Pokemon will have 70%+ of usage, like PDon after its introduction, YEN core in Gen 8 Ubers rocking 85% usage that 09-10a mentioned in his/her post.

Is the current PDon and Ho-Oh over centralized by the usage of Xerneas, or even Xerneas + friends? No, far from it! They have respectively 60% and 29% usage. If Xerneas mandates the use of this core then it is doing a very bad job, especially considering that they also check a whole lot of other threats in the metagame. In other words, Xerneas is used despite the existence of two top-tier threats and not the other way around like some pro-ban arguments would imply. I concede that some Ho-Oh could take a more offensive role if not for Xerneas and Zacian-C, not that it invalidates my point.
Except, you're focusing at *ladder* usage, which is very different from tournament play, may I remind you that Lugia is NDOUbers out of usage? And you also forgot to mention that such percentages still put Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh within the top 5 most used mons in the ladder, Xerneas is also in the top 5 for that matter.

Them also covering a variety of other threats in the meta is a good argument on paper, but at the same time as I've brought up in a previous post, the thing is that they don't even check Xerneas consistently in the first place, at best it's just a coinflip where the non-Xerneas player has way less to lose on who Terastallizes into what, and PDon is easy to wear down, let alone Tera Fighting Focus Blast OHKOing.

People also use the Tera argument for a ban. Well if Xerneas needs to Tera to get past its usual checks, then it's only fair for the defending team to use Tera as well. Tera Fire Ho-Oh is a surefire counter to Xerneas, but Ho-Oh often runs other Tera because we have enough counterplay to Xerneas in the tier. Balance teams consisting of PDon, Ho-Oh/Giratina-O, Eternatus/Necrozma-DM/POgre, Zygarde-C/Arceus-Ground are solid enough to provide counterplay to every combination of threat in the metagame. Pair this with a priority user/speed control/fast Taunt and you have an excellent backbone, which you as the team builder can afford to weaken by replacing a member by another one generating enough offensive pressure to offset the weakness generated. I really, really don't think the metagame is in a bad place or not enjoyable enough to warrant any ban, maybe with the exception of Tera. Zacian-C can also run through PDon and Ho-Oh with Tera Fighting, requiring a defensive Tera to deal with it since it also happens to resist Extremespeed, unlike Xerneas. It also has more switch-in opportunities, so why Xerneas? Is it because of the possibility of Ingrain? Of Z-Geomancy? Is it because it can choose when to click Geomancy and Zacian-C needs the +3 to get past PDon?
Just because both teams have access to a mechanic doesn't mean that an abuser in question is balanced, each Pokemon abuses such mechanic for different results and potency, and it's quite clear that the amount Xerneas abuses it is way beyond the norm. i've also already gone on this interaction being considerably in favor of the Xerneas player as they worry at most about losing a single Pokemon, while the other team can be swept by a single misplay.

You're mentioning a ton of mons at almost random and then suggesting that it's viable to check Xerneas by offensive pressure, which not only gives a poorly substantiated point, it also goes back to a point I did in a previous post on "legitimate" counterplay to Xerneas besides Terastallizing mind-games where the non-Xerneas player is in a disadvantage, to either running hyper offense or stall, which is quite blatantly unhealthy for the metagame to say the least.

Actually, Zacian-C has received some complaints among the community and some members of the council, so it's not really something to stand on to claim that Xerneas is fine if it is. Zacian-C has way less sweeping potential long-term as it can't be used to force something out then switch out without an opportunity cost of the limitations of Intrepid Sword since this generation, there's also the matter of Zacian-C not outspeeding the entire metagame after a boost (or having that kind of boost viably in the first place), less longevity as its best coverage move in Wild Charge has recoil damage, as a physical attacker it's vulnerable to Rocky Helmet and burns, and Tera Blast becomes a useless moveslot (unlike Hidden Power) if the mechanic is used by another ally, so overall Zacian-C simply isn't as optimized as Xerneas.

Well on the latter, when can Xerneas realistically click Geomancy without any retaliation so that any subsequent priority move does not pick it off? I mentioned it in the post I linked. Zygarde-C, Arceus-Dark, Mega Mewtwo Y, Giratina-O, Deoxys-A at -2. If Xerneas was such a problem and didn't have enough counterplay then they wouldn't be ranked S, A+, A-, A-, A- respectively. This is hard evidence that Xerneas doesn't impact the metagame to an unhealthy degree.

With the correct Tera right off the bat, for example Steel or Electric Xerneas could set up on more things such as Eternatus or Mega Salamence, but this means Xerneas won't be able to get past Ho-Oh or Groudon.
Actually, the VR is outdated at the moment, the council is basically waiting for this suspect to end to see what should be where, so that's not really a point, and while defensive Tera types are a thing for Xerneas, they are more niche and not too supportive on it being healthy either.

I've also already mentioned that as PDon has no reliable recovery, it can be worn down by the rest of Xerneas's team, and a similar thing applies to Ho-Oh as Regenerator can only heal so much over time, and that's ignoring status conditions or entry hazards, especially if Ho-Oh is hit by Knock Off.

Overall, I find the pro-ban arguments to be idealized and fail to consider the larger scheme of things. If PDon can be chipped by a bunch of different things, so can Xerneas by SR. If you need to preserve PDon in a very good condition to take a +2 Focus Blast, you can rely on your teammates to ease Groudon's job. Remember you have 6 slots to fend off the opposing team, unlike Xerneas' team because the only attacks Xerneas can realistically take is resisted Judgments and weak Thousand Arrows, so it must rely on its 5 other teammates. If you don't have the right Tera you cannot blow past Ho-Oh, or have less opportunities to set-up. If you use Xerneas + Zacian-C, Xerneas + POgre, or worse, Xerneas + Gothitelle, you'd better manage the rest of your team because you just dedicated two slots to overload Xerneas' checks and are prone to get swept first by other threats which have, unlike Xerneas, several opportunities to set-up throughout a game, even though Zacian-C or POgre do have defensive utility.

I'm not undermining Xerneas' qualities. It is a fantastic Pokemon which can be devastating in the right hands and the right matchup. The lack of immediate power, the popularity of its checks, the need to run the right Tera to get past said checks, the lack of general defensive utility all holds it back. There is a ban threshold and I don't think it goes above that line.
Thing is that as a offensive Pokemon Xerneas isn't as concerned about taking chip damage, especially as it only tries to sweep once. It's far easier said than done to basically play a 5v6 where Primal Groudon is kept perfectly on the back just to play around Xerneas.
Your second point seems to act as if a player is going to hard-switch Xerneas to then try to sweep, that's not how it's played besides against a foe choice-locked into a Dragon-type move. Instead it just comes by a slow pivot or as a revenge killer to something it can clearly abuse, even sturdy so-called checks like Necrozma-DM can struggle with Xerneas as it can combine the offensive and defensive potential of Terastallizing with Tera Electric.

Team structures with Xerneas + Gothitelle have actually shown to be strong from what I recall, Gothitelle can come into Ho-Oh and directly remove it from play, leaving the path wide open for Xerneas to sweep, especially given the team structures that Ho-Oh is found on.

The issue is not on Xerneas simply existing and winning the game, but rather on it giving far too much of an advantage to the user and all counterplay to it being inconsistent, with the most viable alternatives having to pull a mind-game to avoid being potentially swept, let alone also being kept healthy when they're often the defensive backbone of a team in the first place, or downright unviable as they do nothing else (say, Clodsire), which Xerneas can play around if the metagame "adapts" by running Psyshock as mentioned previously.

These provided points overall just show some too ideal conditions that simply don't adapt well to practice, and just highlight the issues Xerneas has.
 
I feel like I need to address some points related to my previous post and Bobsican's reply.


Except, you're focusing at *ladder* usage, which is very different from tournament play, may I remind you that Lugia is NDOUbers out of usage? And you also forgot to mention that such percentages still put Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh within the top 5 most used mons in the ladder, Xerneas is also in the top 5 for that matter.
And ladder is not representative of a tier because? I'm aware it's not the same as tournament play. This doesn't mean it doesn't support the argument that Xerneas is not restricting the tier. Top 5 mons means nothing, what matters is the % usage.

Them also covering a variety of other threats in the meta is a good argument on paper,
It's the rebuttal of the argument of the pro-ban side that Xerneas requires PDon + Ho-Oh, which is not the case as I illustrated.


Just because both teams have access to a mechanic doesn't mean that an abuser in question is balanced, each Pokemon abuses such mechanic for different results and potency, and it's quite clear that the amount Xerneas abuses it is way beyond the norm. i've also already gone on this interaction being considerably in favor of the Xerneas player as they worry at most about losing a single Pokemon, while the other team can be swept by a single misplay.
If you get swept because your PDon just fell to a Tera Fighting Xerneas, then your team building is the problem. And so far, Xerneas doesn't restrict team building as plenty of styles and Pokemon are viable.

Re: Zacian-C

My point was to ask how Xerneas differs from other Pokemon such as Zacian-C in requiring several checks and good in-game play, what makes Xerneas so unique?


Actually, the VR is outdated at the moment, the council is basically waiting for this suspect to end to see what should be where, so that's not really a point,
This is actually the part where I have the most issue with. You cannot simply disregard this argument because "VR is outdated". So what? Zygarde-C is not a top tier threat anymore? Is Arceus-Dark's utility not needed anymore?

I don't care where they are in the viability ranking. What I showed is that some Pokemon that can be abused by Xerneas are top tier, some of them are metagame defining. So what does it tell us? That despite Xerneas' existence they are still very good in the metagame, meaning that teams containing said Pokemon have enough counterplay to Xerneas.


Thing is that as a offensive Pokemon Xerneas isn't as concerned about taking chip damage, especially as it only tries to sweep once. It's far easier said than done to basically play a 5v6 where Primal Groudon is kept perfectly on the back just to play around Xerneas.
Your second point seems to act as if a player is going to hard-switch Xerneas to then try to sweep, that's not how it's played besides against a foe choice-locked into a Dragon-type move. Instead it just comes by a slow pivot or as a revenge killer to something it can clearly abuse,
Let me rephrase my point. Other sweepers (or general offensive Pokemon) such as Ultranecrozma prior transformation, Zacian-C, PDon, Yveltal, Arceus-Ground and many more have plenty of switch-in opportunities. You can hard switch them to check different threats. Xerneas, as you said, cannot do this, so you essentially have 5 slots to cover the whole metagame instead of 6 should you choose to use Xerneas, and thus are inherently easier to break through. A well-built team can take advantage of this while having good Xerneas checks in the back.


Team structures with Xerneas + Gothitelle have actually shown to be strong from what I recall, Gothitelle can come into Ho-Oh and directly remove it from play, leaving the path wide open for Xerneas to sweep, especially given the team structures that Ho-Oh is found on.
This is a Gothitelle problem and not a Xerneas one. Gothitelle + LO Eternatus does the same, except being harder to take advantage of thanks to Eternatus' immediate power and speed control.

The issue is not on Xerneas simply existing and winning the game, but rather on it giving far too much of an advantage to the user and all counterplay to it being inconsistent, with the most viable alternatives having to pull a mind-game to avoid being potentially swept, let alone also being kept healthy when they're often the defensive backbone of a team in the first place,
One counterplay is inconsistent but a combination of two of them (i.e. Tera Ho-Oh, Ho-Oh + PDon, any check + Priority, Taunt, Knock Off, general offensive pressure) is pretty damn consistent in answering Xerneas, meaning no mind games needed. You'll notice that I haven't even talked about Ditto.

In general, and this is the most important, I don't think the conditions needed for a Xerneas ban are reached. It's not uncompetitive whatsoever, and its brokenness remains to be seen as it doesn't require some obscure counters, doesn't restrict team building more than any other top tier threats, doesn't drastically lessen the viability of any Pokemon I can think of (for example PDon vs Zekrom, regular Kyogre) and doesn't confine the metagame to favor a play style over another.
 
And ladder is not representative of a tier because? I'm aware it's not the same as tournament play. This doesn't mean it doesn't support the argument that Xerneas is not restricting the tier. Top 5 mons means nothing, what matters is the % usage.
Ladder isn't wholly unrepresentative of the tier, but when you play, even at high ladder, it is hard to come to the conclusion that ladder is really representative of the tier. That is also before you look at the stats rather than whatever nonsense you happen to run into. For example, at 1790+ the majority of :marshadow: are holding a :focus-sash:. That is something that no one has suggested as counterplay, rightfully so as it is an unviable set. This means that appoximately every eighth person you run into on high ladder is going going to be running :focus-sash::marshadow:.

I'd think that alone pretty well illustrates that basing an argument on solely ladder usage, rather than using it to augment to augment your argument if it is applicable. Even outside of :focus-sash::marshadow: there is so much garbage at high ladder that I'd be somewhat skeptical that anyone who has played there would be unaware of this. That being said, the ladder stats from last month arn't as bad as they tend to be in terms of representing the meta. :arceus: sticks out a bit, it is a good mon for sure but 28% usage is way too high. I'm not going to get into what I think the rough order and usage of the top mons should be as it isn't relevant to this thread.

If we are to take the ladder as representative of what the meta actually is aside from the general nonsense of mons such as :lugia::kyogre: being a legitimate part of the tier, Trick Room accounted for approximately 9-10% of teams last month. Trick Room having such a high usage rate is almost always a signifier of deeper issues within a tier. People may disagree about specifically what that may be, but there is usually broad agreement that there is some issue. In most tiers, but particularly NDUbers, TR is a deeply flawed playstyle that only rises to prominence when HO is too strong as it tends to be close to an autowin v most forms of HO whilst losing to every other playstyle. In a healthy metagame TR should be relegated to a niche playstyle at best.

You make of this what you will. Logically, you'd say say that this is largely a ladder response to HO, but we all know that some portion of it is people enjoying
1710007270528.png
:choice-band::melmetal:. That :melmetal: has 9.5% usage is another reason to not entirely base your arguments on ladder usage imo. It is obviously not even in the same league as :salamence-mega:. I'm not saying to disregard ladder statistics entirely, but that basing an argument entirely on ladder, and particularly ladder usage leaves it quite susceptible to being based on ladder tomfoolery. Tournaments don't happen particularly frequently, but if you can use them as a base for your argument it tends to be a much better starting point.


If you get swept because your PDon just fell to a Tera Fighting Xerneas, then your team building is the problem. And so far, Xerneas doesn't restrict team building as plenty of styles and Pokemon are viable.
Bob can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I believe he is getting at is that in this scenario :xerneas: has dealt with the :ho-oh: through hp rock and you have a healthyish :groudon-primal: that could otherwise take a hit. Part of what makes
1710008580154.png
HP Rock FB such a threat is that it doesn't need to tera in most games. :groudon-primal: is nearly always going to be a secondary :xerneas: check on balance teams and even most BO squads you're primarily relying on something teraing + :groudon-primal: to handle :xerneas: if it isn't in :marshadow: range.

I do find it surprising that you claim that :xerneas: doesn't restrict teambuilding when you acknowledged that it does in your VR post. I agree that every teamstyle does remain viable :xerneas: being present in the tier but it does signficantly hinder BO as a whole due those teams generally giving :xerneas: plenty of opportunities to boost whilst also seldom being able to fit solid :xerneas: counterplay.

Though :xerneas: doesn't render playstyles unviable it heavily restricts what you can comfortably run within those playstyles, particularly balance and BO. If not for :xerneas: for example, :yveltal: would compete with :ho-oh: as a defogger more than it currently does. :giratina-origin: would be a signifcantly better mon in the meta and so on. Even if :xerneas: was banned I'd still probably default to :ho-oh::groudon-primal: when building balance, but the rest of the team would be far more varied.

This is actually the part where I have the most issue with. You cannot simply disregard this argument because "VR is outdated". So what? Zygarde-C is not a top tier threat anymore? Is Arceus-Dark's utility not needed anymore?

I don't care where they are in the viability ranking. What I showed is that some Pokemon that can be abused by Xerneas are top tier, some of them are metagame defining. So what does it tell us? That despite Xerneas' existence they are still very good in the metagame, meaning that teams containing said Pokemon have enough counterplay to Xerneas.
I agree with you here in that the VR being outdated, though I wouldn't say it is inaccurate for the most part. Some things defenitely should move, but if a new player were to use it as reference they arn't going to be lead astray. I also don't agree with the point about :ho-oh: being knocked being particularly relevant in the :xerneas: discussion. Where I disagree with you is that that :xerneas: weak mons are not only viable, but some of them are key components of the meta is not a good reason to keep :xerneas: around. If running a :xerneas: weak mon on your team made it a bad team :xerneas: would have been banned a long time ago.

I think part of the reason why we are disagreeing is that you're looking at things in a vacuum. I think most pro ban voters, including myself would agree that counterplay exists, but is largely inadequate. All of :xerneas:'s defensive counterplay is required to be at near if not full health in order to actually answer it. A :xerneas: on the other side means :ho-oh: takes a massive risk defogging if it can't regen whatever health it looses while doing so as it otherwise no longer an ironclad :xerneas: check due to tera mindgames. Likewise, :groudon-primal: becomes incredibly uncomfortable setting hazards or switching into :kyogre-primal: as any chip puts it dangerously close to being OHKO'd at +2 even without accounting for hazards. This also doesn't account for sets such as focus blast or ingrain which render these two as checks moot anyways. :arceus::marshadow: face similar issues in that they require whatever sac is used to actually get :xerneas: into range of their attacks. Bob summed it up best by saying " this interaction being considerably in favor of the Xerneas player as they worry at most about losing a single Pokemon, while the other team can be swept by a single misplay." This is also something I touched on in my post about using :Xerneas: as a wallbreaker.

Yes the mons you've listed are good despite being :xerneas: fodder, that still does not mean that there is adequate counterplay to :xerneas:, especially when that counterplay is walking on a razors edge. As an example, a mon I view as similarly constraining is :necrozma-ultra:. The key difference between :necrozma-ultra: and :xerneas: is that the :necrozma-ultra: counterplay is actually solid. A reasonably healthy :arceus-dark: can always switch in and revenge it. :mashadow: can always revenge it if it has taken any chip. :yveltal: can always revenge it if it is willing to tera and will do so most of the time anyways. There is other counterplay, but compare this to :ho-oh: gets toxic'd or takes any chip and your counterplay is now a coinflip which heavily favours the :Xerneas: user.

Let me rephrase my point. Other sweepers (or general offensive Pokemon) such as Ultranecrozma prior transformation, Zacian-C, PDon, Yveltal, Arceus-Ground and many more have plenty of switch-in opportunities. You can hard switch them to check different threats. Xerneas, as you said, cannot do this, so you essentially have 5 slots to cover the whole metagame instead of 6 should you choose to use Xerneas, and thus are inherently easier to break through. A well-built team can take advantage of this while having good Xerneas checks in the back.
This is something I'd largely disagree with. :yveltal: doesn't really fit in with the rest. :groudon-primal: and :arceus-ground: (more cm than dd sets) find switchin opportunities but :zacian-crowned: and :necrozma-ultra: don't really switch into much of anything. The only thing that :zacian-crowned: is semi comfortable switching in on is :yveltal: and a scouted :arceus-dark:. :yveltal: can run heat wave, but that is uncommon enough to to say it can generally switch in. :zacian-crowned: really doesn't want to switch in unless it is able to pull off a sweep as being forced out, even without taking damage, heavily comprimises its ability to do so later. :necrozma-ultra: is really taking a risk switching in v much of the metagame as uninvested it really does not great bulk even as :necrozma-dusk-mane:. Taking a stray hit + hazards is generally going to push it into non :marshadow: revenge killing range.

What Bob said applies about :xerneas: switching in applies to most of these mons as well with the exception of :groudon-primal:. :zacian-crowned: Most of the time they arn't going to be hard switching in and they are not being used defensively. They'll come in after something they can force out or set up on has killed another teammate. Sure they can switch in and take a risk, but often times there is little upside to doing so.

This is a Gothitelle problem and not a Xerneas one. Gothitelle + LO Eternatus does the same, except being harder to take advantage of thanks to Eternatus' immediate power and speed control.
It is both. :gothitelle: is as strong as what it enables. I've said before I'd be happy to see shadow tag banned. Even if :gothitelle: were banned I'm not sure that moves the needle for pro or anti ban voters. Sure it is a good partner for :xerneas:, but I don't consider it to change the impetus.

One counterplay is inconsistent but a combination of two of them (i.e. Tera Ho-Oh, Ho-Oh + PDon, any check + Priority, Taunt, Knock Off, general offensive pressure) is pretty damn consistent in answering Xerneas, meaning no mind games needed. You'll notice that I haven't even talked about Ditto.
The point is that while two methods of counterplay is enough to handle :xerneas: it too often isn't enough to handle :xerneas: + friends. Even :ho-oh::groudon-primal: requires mindgames as tera :ho-oh: and the :xerneas: user reads or guesses that :ho-oh: just dies to moonblast with any chip. You can also tera and phase while the :xerneas: user just attacks while means :ho-oh: is likely now going to be vulnerable to one of :xerneas:'s partners and :power-herb: is still intact. Taunt still has similar interactions given that our most common taunters (:arceus-dark::yveltal:) are OHKOd by moonblast. Sure we have other users of taunt but those with the exception of :arceus-poison: don't exactly handle even unboosted moonblast well and merely delay :xerneas: as opposed to actually checking it. Furthermore, taunt is not an auto include on these mons movesets as they often have other moves they would rather fit. You also have to actually have them in v :xereneas: which isn't exactly a guarentee once you've revealed taunt. The reason I and others have not mentioned :ditto: is that in practise it doesn't answer :xerneas: significantly better than :marshadow::arceus:. :ditto: doesn't OHKO and is OHKO'd in return and doesn't pick :xerneas: off from a much higher range than :marshadow::arceus:.

The common thread in all of the counterplay you've listed is that it is contingent on the :xerneas: user using geomancy and then attempting to sweep when they are under no obligation to do so and often times that is worse play than just attacking. This isn't in regards to anything in particular you've wrote, but when deciding whether to ban a mon decide it based on what it is actually capable of doing when played well. During my suspect run and when I've laddered in general yeah :ho-oh::groudon-primal: has been absolutely fine because a lot of people just go oh I can
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that full health :ho-oh: rather than doing a slight bit of work and chipping the :ho-oh: or using :xerneas: to break for its teammates which could easily win from there if they were not so greedy. If I were to vote based on what I've seen rather than what :xerneas: can actually do I wouldn't vote to ban it. The same would have applied to :koraidon:. I faced 8 during that suspect run, switched in :zygarde: every single time clicked
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and glared it. Never was punished a single time and it was mostly the same for high ladder games. Still voted to ban it because even though I had a team well built to handle :koraidon: it was obviously way too much.

In general, and this is the most important, I don't think the conditions needed for a Xerneas ban are reached. It's not uncompetitive whatsoever, and its brokenness remains to be seen as it doesn't require some obscure counters, doesn't restrict team building more than any other top tier threats, doesn't drastically lessen the viability of any Pokemon I can think of (for example PDon vs Zekrom, regular Kyogre) and doesn't confine the metagame to favor a play style over another.
I'd agree with you that it isn't uncompetitive though I do believe it is unhealthy enough to warrant a ban. I'll also agree that it doesn't require obscure counters, gona state again :clodsire: isn't real atm. It most certainly does restrict teams more than other top threats. A key differentiating factor between other top threats such as :groudon-primal: is opportunity cost. Double Dance :groudon-primal: is one of the scariest mons in the no questions asked. However, if you commit to that you lose almost all of the defensive utility that you'd associate with :groudon-primal:. It also requires more than a single turn to sweep most of the time or the opposing team to in a signicantly weakened state relative to :xerneas:.

Ubers has and always will be a centralized tier, that is not going to change regardless of the outcome of this suspect test. The tier centralizing around :groudon-primal: is healthy as it provides an immense defensive presence regardless of it :xerneas: gets the boot. It can do everything, but crucially it can't do everything at once. Defensive sets are not threatening to sweep you. SD Utility sets are great breakers but will easily be revenge killed. Double Dance sets have minimal defensive utility. This is very different from :xerneas: which is just a beatstick that chooses what beats it and you have to hope you guess right or you're probably going to lose. A team can handle being a little weak to a particular :groudon-primal: set, the same can't be said of :xerneas:. Generally you're capable of handling it or you lose. Even then it can still find a way to beat you.
 

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I feel like I need to address some points related to my previous post and Bobsican's reply.



And ladder is not representative of a tier because? I'm aware it's not the same as tournament play. This doesn't mean it doesn't support the argument that Xerneas is not restricting the tier. Top 5 mons means nothing, what matters is the % usage.


It's the rebuttal of the argument of the pro-ban side that Xerneas requires PDon + Ho-Oh, which is not the case as I illustrated.



If you get swept because your PDon just fell to a Tera Fighting Xerneas, then your team building is the problem. And so far, Xerneas doesn't restrict team building as plenty of styles and Pokemon are viable.

Re: Zacian-C

My point was to ask how Xerneas differs from other Pokemon such as Zacian-C in requiring several checks and good in-game play, what makes Xerneas so unique?



This is actually the part where I have the most issue with. You cannot simply disregard this argument because "VR is outdated". So what? Zygarde-C is not a top tier threat anymore? Is Arceus-Dark's utility not needed anymore?

I don't care where they are in the viability ranking. What I showed is that some Pokemon that can be abused by Xerneas are top tier, some of them are metagame defining. So what does it tell us? That despite Xerneas' existence they are still very good in the metagame, meaning that teams containing said Pokemon have enough counterplay to Xerneas.



Let me rephrase my point. Other sweepers (or general offensive Pokemon) such as Ultranecrozma prior transformation, Zacian-C, PDon, Yveltal, Arceus-Ground and many more have plenty of switch-in opportunities. You can hard switch them to check different threats. Xerneas, as you said, cannot do this, so you essentially have 5 slots to cover the whole metagame instead of 6 should you choose to use Xerneas, and thus are inherently easier to break through. A well-built team can take advantage of this while having good Xerneas checks in the back.



This is a Gothitelle problem and not a Xerneas one. Gothitelle + LO Eternatus does the same, except being harder to take advantage of thanks to Eternatus' immediate power and speed control.



One counterplay is inconsistent but a combination of two of them (i.e. Tera Ho-Oh, Ho-Oh + PDon, any check + Priority, Taunt, Knock Off, general offensive pressure) is pretty damn consistent in answering Xerneas, meaning no mind games needed. You'll notice that I haven't even talked about Ditto.

In general, and this is the most important, I don't think the conditions needed for a Xerneas ban are reached. It's not uncompetitive whatsoever, and its brokenness remains to be seen as it doesn't require some obscure counters, doesn't restrict team building more than any other top tier threats, doesn't drastically lessen the viability of any Pokemon I can think of (for example PDon vs Zekrom, regular Kyogre) and doesn't confine the metagame to favor a play style over another.
One thing, how does one person do all of this while still accounting for other relatively popular Xerneas sets that players such as myself have used in high level. The ones I am particularly fond of is the following;
Xerneas @ Choice Specs
Ability: Fairy Aura
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Aromatherapy
- Defog
This set precisely outspeeds Dragon Dance Zygarde sets by 1 point with a modest nature, hitting a prominent speed tier, along with 401 HP allowing it to take 5 hits from a Chansey Seismic Toss in the stall matchup assuming no hazards are present, but this is a niche case already and the EVs are not needed anywhere else as no speed or special attack had to be sacrificed to hit the benchmark. This set doesnt rely on Tera, but is an excellent abuser of it regardless, letting it hit the following absurd calcs;
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 183-216 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 163-192 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(Even though you may argue these conditions are meant to favour Xerneas user, it doesnt matter in this case as if you are layering entry hazards vs a Deoxys-Speed HO team then your opponent sucks ngl and without them Xerneas LIVES SUNSTEEL STRIKE; 0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Xerneas: 336-396 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Fairy Aura Tera Fairy Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 151-178 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ho-oh is one of the few mons able to switch in and threaten xern with status or chip, except since xern isnt relying on a consumable power herb, it can come in MULTIPLE TIMES AND MAKE THESE ABSURD CALCS HAPPEN MULTIPLE TIMES EACH GAME and with Ho-oh regenerating 33.3% of its HP each time it comes in to check Xerneas and Moonblast dealing 39.5% on avg, this is not sustainable, and is idealized for the non-Xerneas user as it assumes that Ho-oh is not needed to check the other setup monsters it has on its team that could threaten Ho-oh like Unec and double dance Pdon and Zygarde and Calm Mind Arceus Fairy and Calm Mind Arceus Ground and Bulk Up or Choice Band Marshadow, and I could keep going. This also fails to account for any prediction Xerneas gets right in Thunderbolting the right checks as they switch into its Moonblasts as well as Critical Hits chipping Ho-oh down even faster.
I could list more calcs but it would be redundant as these are the only "checks" to this monster, and when the Regenerator resist with record breaking levels of special bulk cannot handle it, nothing can. this is only 1 OUT OF 2 COMMON CHOICED XERN SETS, EACH WITH ENTIRELY DIFFERENT METHODS OF COUNTERPLAY and with the only available methods of deducing the Xerneas' sets require it either hitting your speedsters with Moonblasts that take them out of commision or leaving in whatever mon Xerneas switched into to see if Xerneas outspeeds it or not, as any other option either lets something take 100% regardless of the set due to being frail or weak to Fairy type attacks, or with switching you have no way of deducing speed as you never moved that turn. This gets repeated each time it comes in until you see it outspeed and Thunderbolt/Thunder Wave your Zacian rendering it useless or letting it throw off a nuke into your defensive backbone and leaving it crippled to handle other pokemon throughout the game. So the opponent is expected to juggle all of these guessing games on top of keeping everything in ideal condition to take on Geomancy Xerneas. And on top of that. there are other sets of Xerneas' that have relevancy in the Tournament and Ladder metagames, such as Ingrain Tera Water Xerneas with max physical defense investment, various Z-Geomancy sets, and general utility sets. Some other sets exist, but are mostly just variations of the aforementioned sets like bulky Choice Scarf Xerneas. The biggest issue for me is the suprise factor from a set that these common variants of Xerneas sets could use, and most, if not all, have very different forms of counterplay, where deducing a slightly different coverage move, Tera Type or Held Item and switching in something at an inopportune time, which will often jeopardize the game immediately. The unpredictability Xerneas can have causes you to have to innovate checks to all of these variants to a degree where you can outplay ur opponent enough to overcome it, but with the sheer power and versatility of Xerneas' sets and coverage make that a near impossible feat to achieve. The only decent check I know of to most is Magearna , but with Pain Split being its only form of recovery while being effected by spikes, and the only other meta relevant pokemon it hard checks being Life Orb Yveltal, it is a highly specific pokemon the requires being built around like I did back during the Koraidon suspect, needing Choice Scarf Koraidon and Tera Fairy defensive Roar Lunala to handle other major powerhouses that steamroll the defensive core of Arceus Dark, Magearna, Primal Groudon and Zygarde, but even this was still steamrolled by Choice Specs Xerneas despite nearly perfectly answering Geomancy Xerneas sets with Shadow Shield and Roar, Heart Swap, and a strong Earthquake. This brings me to my main point. No matter how much you prep for Xerneas, if it slightly changes its method of breaking in an initially inperceptable way for a game, you cannot beat it without making multiple uninformed calls until it clicks Aromatherapy, Defog, or Geomancy. Oh yeah, Xerneas' stupid support movepool, I almost forgot! Who knew that having Non-Volatile Status clearingand Entry Hazard control on a momentum generating monster wallbreaker further exasbarbates all the issues of wearing it down, and if you play Xerneas properly, it should break through a vast majority of teams as long as you do not make a major mistake. If I missed anything major flame me for it in the replys and I'll adjust this accordingly and note if it changes the key points I made here. anyway if it aint clear where i stand, Gay Deer makes me say, "Oh dear!".
I want it gone
 
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